DeCree-XRE-1

ElektroLumens · #1 11-18-2006, 06:12 PM

I know I'm supposed to be working on existing flashlights, get them all out, before I make a new one, but.... I ....... couldn't help it........ Must Create New Flashlight!

Actually I've been tinkering with this for a few months, here and there a little bit of work. I anodized it last night, and assembled it this morning.

I am using a Luxeon 3W LED, bin TX1J, an 18650 Li-Ion battery, direct drive. It has a 20mm reflector, and a mineral glass lens. The switch is a twisty, twist on/off, momentary switch. I do have a heat sink assembly with a Cree LED mounted, but I do not have the optics for it yet, so I'll have to wait until they come before I can try the Cree in this light. I can use either the 3W Luxeon or the Cree XR-E in this light.

I figure run time should be around 2.5 hours on a charge. I did not put in the protection circuit I have as it's too big, so it is not protected from over discharge.

I can also use 2/3 A NIMH batteries, and it will be longer if I do, and run time would be less than half as long. So I figure the Li-Ion would be the preferred battery.

This is a very simple light, no boost circuit, no mult-level brightness. I figure you do not always need 50 levels of brightness, nor does everyone want to spend $200 to $300 for a little pocket light. Someone somewhere says that the only light that matters is the one you have with you. This one is small enough to carry with you, and will provide 2+ hours of continuous run time.

I do not plan to market this real soon, but I do like to put new flashlights forth to CPF members for comments and suggestions.

When I do sell these (if I do), I would make up a batch of 50 or so. Price would be fairly reasonable too. Circuitry can be added, but I'd like to see what sort of performance the 18650 actually gives DD, and also keep the price down as much as possible. Just a carry around bright light that's not too expensive (well, the 18650 is not an inexpensive battery, is it?) Anyway . . .

Wayne

Meduza · #2 11-18-2006, 06:36 PM

Nice!

adirondackdestroyer · #3 11-18-2006, 06:55 PM

I love the look of it but I wish it had some circuitry that would make it run regulated.

Monolith · #4 11-18-2006, 06:57 PM

Put a Cree in there and you'll have a line to your door.

IsaacHayes · #5 11-18-2006, 07:24 PM

Add a resistor at least if putting in the cree. The vf vs current graph is a lot different than the luxeons and only a .2 of a volt can cause up to 1300ma jump in some bins!

ElektroLumens · #6 11-18-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsaacHayes

Add a resistor at least if putting in the cree. The vf vs current graph is a lot different than the luxeons and only a .2 of a volt can cause up to 1300ma jump in some bins!

Yeah, I'll watch the power level. I have powered the Cree from the bench power supply, I also powered it from this 18650 battery. It didn't seem like it was over powering the LED, but I only touched it on the battery for a moment and didn't measure the power.

Wayne

ElektroLumens · #7 11-18-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adirondackdestroyer

I love the look of it but I wish it had some circuitry that would make it run regulated.

Well, I will certainly consider regulation. I will test the power curve and see how it goes. I'm familiar with NIMH and alkalines, but not Li-Ion. I do know they should not be over discharged, but that holds true for NIMH as well.

Wayne

ElektroLumens · #8 11-18-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monolith

Put a Cree in there and you'll have a line to your door.

Like I said, I do have a Cree LED mounted on a heat sink fitted for this flashlight. Just awaiting the optics. I have optics coming from Cree, and also I have some new designed ones coming from Fraen. I can make them either with the Luxeon 3W or the Cree XR-E. I will do comparisons, so you will be able to see the difference.

I've been doodling with this little light for months, and when I got the Cree LEDs in, I decided this might be a good light for it. There is a boat load of flashlights in this category of flashlight coming out of China and Taiwan, so I'm not real excited about this. I doubt many if any of them are built as tough as this one is, though.

Using a Li-Ion is quite a departure from the norm for me, as I normally stick with NIMH as my favorite battery. I just bought some 18650's out of curiosity. I also bought some NIMh 2/3 A batteries which I could also use in this light if I wanted to, but it would be perhaps as much as 1" longer and run less than 1/2 as long on a charge.

Wayne

fnmag · #9 11-18-2006, 09:51 PM

Sign me up for a Cree XR-E with some type of regulation.

Long John · #10 11-19-2006, 05:38 AM

Wayne, nice light.

DD isn't bad, since the tube fits a protected 18650 cell. So no problems with underdischarge. A 2-stage tailcap (resistor) would be nice for extended runtimes and less brightness for narrow tasks.

Best regards

____
Tom

joema · #11 11-19-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monolith

Put a Cree in there and you'll have a line to your door.

Ditto. While I prefer multi-level regulated lights, there's a good argument for a relatively inexpensive, simple rechargeable direct drive light.

Given an XR-E emitter, proper beam design, and a good choice of output vs run time, it would be very popular.

Depending on the cost and final specifics, it would make a great "gift" light.

Gifting non-flashaholics with high-powered CR123A lights is always complicated by the battery availability issue.

I sometimes encounter friends who are mechanics, home inspectors, contractors, etc, and I'd like to get them a very rugged high output LED light which isn't too expensive, and which uses rechargeable batteries. Not many choices in that category.

With the XR-E, a direct drive light using a single 18650 could give a winning combination of run time, output, size, and price.

My main concern would be getting the beam design right for maximum general-purpose utility. Ideally you'd want a good mix of flood and throw.

How about making two lights in the same form factor, optics, 18650 and tooling: (1) A fancy regulated multiple output version (for flashaholics) and (2) A less expensive, simple, single-output direct-drive version. That way you'd amortize your development costs over two similar lights, plus appeal to a broader consumer base.

ElektroLumens · #12 11-19-2006, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long John

Wayne, nice light.

DD isn't bad, since the tube fits a protected 18650 cell. So no problems with underdischarge. A 2-stage tailcap (resistor) would be nice for extended runtimes and less brightness for narrow tasks.

Best regards

____
Tom

Right, a protected 18650 cell is what I'm using.

I do have a tail cap clicky switch I can use. But I like the simplicity of the twisty, and also the reliability of the twisty. Depending on the level of power this light is set at, run time can be really long, especially if I use the Cree.

Wayne

ElektroLumens · #13 11-19-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Ditto. While I prefer multi-level regulated lights, there's a good argument for a relatively inexpensive, simple rechargeable direct drive light.

Given an XR-E emitter, proper beam design, and a good choice of output vs run time, it would be very popular.

Depending on the cost and final specifics, it would make a great "gift" light.

Gifting non-flashaholics with high-powered CR123A lights is always complicated by the battery availability issue.

I sometimes encounter friends who are mechanics, home inspectors, contractors, etc, and I'd like to get them a very rugged high output LED light which isn't too expensive, and which uses rechargeable batteries. Not many choices in that category.

With the XR-E, a direct drive light using a single 18650 could give a winning combination of run time, output, size, and price.

My main concern would be getting the beam design right for maximum general-purpose utility. Ideally you'd want a good mix of flood and throw.

How about making two lights in the same form factor, optics, 18650 and tooling: (1) A fancy regulated multiple output version (for flashaholics) and (2) A less expensive, simple, single-output direct-drive version. That way you'd amortize your development costs over two similar lights, plus appeal to a broader consumer base.

A lot of good feedback, thanks.

Regarding the beam, right now I know of 2 different collimators I can use. I don't know of a reflector for the Cree (yet). Probably it is 10 degrees. I assume the Fraen optics I have coming would be similar to the Fraen LP optics I've been using. If so, than it would be fine with me.

I do not always design lights for the flashaholic (horrors, did I say that

), and this flashlight may not necessarily be for the flashaholic. No 'gee whiz' multil-level brightness circuit, no fancy switch, polished nickel finish, etc, things CPF people really go for. Just a simple practical rechargable light, bright and small. No hesitation to keep it in your pocket with your keys, or in glove box or even tool box, etc.

I do not like the CR123 for flashlight use. It is very expensive in the store, and multiple CR123 flashlights have exploded. I hope the 18650 is safer to use?

Two versions of this light? Not sure. Maybe.

On an off note from this thread, I might make the monster 'KONG' flashlight, using the Cree instead of the Luxeon 3W or K2 LED. KONG is a 5" diamter head flashlight with 24 LEDS. Originally it is to have 24 Luxeon 3W in a 5" diamter head, powered from 7 D cells.

Wonder what 24 CREE XR-E would look like. Overheating is a concern, so perhaps the XR-E will resolve that, as they do not get as hot.

Wayne

Long John · #14 11-19-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElektroLumens

On an off note from this thread, I might make the monster 'KONG' flashlight, using the Cree instead of the Luxeon 3W or K2 LED. KONG is a 5" diamter head flashlight with 24 LEDS. Originally it is to have 24 Luxeon 3W in a 5" diamter head, powered from 7 D cells.

Wonder what 24 CREE XR-E would look like. Overheating is a concern, so perhaps the XR-E will resolve that, as they do not get as hot.

Wayne

With the Q3 Crees, each driven at 350mA, you will get about 2400 Lumens output by only about 28 Watts

Best regards

_____
Tom

DoubleDutch · #15 11-19-2006, 08:52 AM

Wayne,

Great plans! This would make a very pocketable go-to light, probably indestructible.

A DD single level light would be fine, as most flashaholics will EDC separate lights for e.a. low level needs (at least I do). Tactical twisty preferably.

My guess is it will be a bit larger, but will outperform my current light in this niche (coat pocket/belt), the Nuwai X-3, in both brightness & runtime.

Curious how this setup will develop.

Kees

IsaacHayes · #16 11-19-2006, 01:02 PM

The micro pucks can be used as a buck circuit, or buck-boost too. I think some regulation would be welcome and provide a nice long runtime, with no drastic change in brightness until the cell is getting low.

Li-ion isnt as safe as nimh IMHO, but a protected Li-Ion in a single cell light is about as safe as you can get with the tech. Using a large li-ion like the 18650 means less internal resistance (and therefore less voltage sag) than a rcr123a so it should have no problem delivering 700-1000ma if you wanted that current.

My vote is modest current long runtime. It can be a frequent use around the house light or a emergency light. Even with 350ma drive, the Cree will be putting out around 80lumens, what you'd get with a luxIII driven at 700ma or more! 500ma drive would be ok as well, and give you more light at the cost of some runtime, but should still be plenty long. There are not many small long runtime torches out there, especially ones with as many lumens as the cree could put out.

ElektroLumens · #17 11-19-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsaacHayes

The micro pucks can be used as a buck circuit, or buck-boost too. I think some regulation would be welcome and provide a nice long runtime, with no drastic change in brightness until the cell is getting low.

Li-ion isnt as safe as nimh IMHO, but a protected Li-Ion in a single cell light is about as safe as you can get with the tech. Using a large li-ion like the 18650 means less internal resistance (and therefore less voltage sag) than a rcr123a so it should have no problem delivering 700-1000ma if you wanted that current.

My vote is modest current long runtime. It can be a frequent use around the house light or a emergency light. Even with 350ma drive, the Cree will be putting out around 80lumens, what you'd get with a luxIII driven at 700ma or more! 500ma drive would be ok as well, and give you more light at the cost of some runtime, but should still be plenty long. There are not many small long runtime torches out there, especially ones with as many lumens as the cree could put out.

I have not used the Micropuck as a buck circuit. Is it in the documentation? I guess I'll have to go back and check that out. I have a lot of 2009 Micropucks on hand.

Li-Ion is not safe if you overcharge it. It is also not safe if you use multiple Li-Ion batteries with differing charges. The internal circuitry should protect against problems, but I guess the circuitry in some Li-Ion has failed, causing explosions. I do not think it likely a single 18650 in a flashlight is likely to explode.

I did notice the power level of the Cree and voltage levels, in a little test, but I'll have to do more testing. I think it was 500mA at around 3.2V, something like that. Don't quote me on that, as I have to do more testing. I was surprised to see how bright it was at a low voltage setting.

I agree, I do not want to make a light that is like all the other lights out there. In some manner it has to be unique, have something different about it. It seems many try to make the brightest smallest light possible (I do like this idea), but run time is not usually a consideration in these little bright torches. At 350mA the 18650 with 2,700mA will give a really long run time, of 6 or 7 hours. I am not sure what power level I will select at this time. I do have my own idea of what is an appropriate level of brightness, I do not want it wimpy or anything like that.

Wayne

joema · #18 11-19-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElektroLumens

...At 350mA the 18650 with 2,700mA will give a really long run time, of 6 or 7 hours. I am not sure what power level I will select at this time. I do have my own idea of what is an appropriate level of brightness, I do not want it wimpy or anything like that....

I agree don't do a 60 min. or 90 min. light. It's true most usage is short duration, and rechargeability reduces the cost. People get by with Streamlight Stingers and Strions which have a short run time.

However a rugged workhorse light will get much use. With a Strion or Stinger the police officer or termite inspector must essentially have a car charger to keep it topped up. It would be nice to get roughly the same usable output in a rugged LED light that requires charging much less frequently.

Even an Inova T4 (one of the few rechargeable LED lights) only runs for 2.5 hr, and with a 18650 and XR-E emitter you can beat the pants off that in both output AND runtime.

There is a point where runtime becomes too long, IOW you're giving up too much output. But up to a certain point -- say 5-8 hr, the light is still very bright and longer runtime would be valued by many real-world users.

IsaacHayes · #19 11-19-2006, 04:40 PM

Yup. 5-8hrs will get you through all night if need be!

joema · #20 11-20-2006, 07:06 AM

Just wanted to reiterate why I think this would be a great light.

Like most flashaholics, I love the big photon cannons (I have a Tesla-6).

However the current Elektrolumens product line is currently dominated by high powered lights that are relatively expensive (for the non-flashaholic). Most are physically large, excepting the Little Friend and Lucidus 3AA.

The ELX-18650 seems to fill a product lineup hole regarding size, practicality and (hopefully) cost. If using a XR-E emitter, it would deliver excellent output and runtime. It would essentially be a shrunken Blaster Jr but with more output, better runtime, and easier recharging. IOW it may not be sexy but it's potentially of broad appeal.

Re runtime, I'd recommend the shorter side of the 5-10 hr range (to 50% output). If direct drive, it will obviously run a lot longer than that in diminishing output for those emergency "power outage" situations.

However I guess final output selection will depend on your preference, visual beam appearance and heat/battery issues revealed by testing.

ElektroLumens · #21 11-20-2006, 07:23 PM

Here's a pic of the Cree XR-E LED attached to a heat sink, waiting to be mounted in the flashlight. I'm thinking to change the name from ELX-18650, to 'DeCree'. I would call this DeCree-Uno, denoting one LED. I will go on to create more DeCree flashlights, DeCree-Duo, DeCree-Trio, DeCree-Quad, and so on.

I do have various optics coming in real soon. I did try the NX01 optics and it does work, but lots of artifacts in the beam. We were astonished at the brightness running it direct drive from the 18650 at around 1.5 amps. We put on the NX01 optics and we were extremely impressed.

I'll have more pics and comments later. I left the flashlight at home today by accident, so have not bee able to do anything with it. The LED module is ready to drop in.

Comments?

Wayne

Monolith · #22 11-20-2006, 08:21 PM

Volunteering for DeCree test piloting....

ElektroLumens · #23 11-21-2006, 08:30 AM

Using the old NX01 optics (designed for the 1W Luxeon LED), I measure 3,800 lux @ 1 meter. Extremely bright, and very pure white. The beam is not so perfect as these optics are not really designed for this LED. It took a bit to get the optics centered. Pressing down too hard with the optics I am sure will smash the LED lens.

I am very impressed! Cannot wait to get the correct optics and try it out!

Wayne

easilyled · #24 11-21-2006, 09:48 AM

Why don't you be the first manufacturer to make a Cree flashlight with an aspherical lens to produce an absoloutely incredible throw?

Newbie obtained a reading of well over 30000 lux at one meter
handholding a 2 inch aspherical lens in front of a P3 bin Cree.

If this was all neatly combined into one package with possibly higher binned
Crees (since P4s are available now and Q2/Q3s will be available in the next
couple of months), this will be really spectacular.

gadagain · #25 11-21-2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by easilyled

Why don't you be the first manufacturer to make a Cree flashlight with an aspherical lens to produce an absoloutely incredible throw?

Newbie obtained a reading of well over 30000 lux at one meter
handholding a 2 inch aspherical lens in front of a P3 bin Cree.

If this was all neatly combined into one package with possibly higher binned
Crees (since P4s are available now and Q2/Q3s will be available in the next
couple of months), this will be really spectacular.

Waiting for that too...

Rommul · #26 11-21-2006, 12:53 PM

Why no tail clickie.

I wanted a Lucidus if it were in an 18650 version. Now this is basically the 1860 version of the Lucidus and now no clickie?

Can't you machine sometailcap that the minimag tailcap swith can be threaed into (the same switch used on the Lucidus). That way People who want to switch to a Terralux minimag switch can do so.

IsaacHayes · #27 11-21-2006, 01:55 PM

easilyled: I'm building a light with the same lens as Newbie's. It's 2.5" in diameter.

There is a production optic FOR the Cree that is asperical. It's kahtoid? or something. It even has a holder for correct spacing.

Wayne, have you ordered the kathoid (sp?) apsherical optics to test with the cree too?

Wayne, be carefull DD'ing and test each led. Cree does not bin by Vf, so it's a lottery with the Vf. I have one that at 3.6x volts its not even pulling 700ma yet, but Chimo has one that pulls 700ma at 3.03v!!

DeCree-Duo? 2 leds in a head? That'll be interesting! The DeCree-Quad should be DeCree-Quatro!

ElektroLumens · #28 11-21-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rommul

Why no tail clickie.

I wanted a Lucidus if it were in an 18650 version. Now this is basically the 1860 version of the Lucidus and now no clickie?

Can't you machine sometailcap that the minimag tailcap swith can be threaed into (the same switch used on the Lucidus). That way People who want to switch to a Terralux minimag switch can do so.

I'll consider it.

Wayne

ElektroLumens · #29 11-21-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsaacHayes

easilyled: I'm building a light with the same lens as Newbie's. It's 2.5" in diameter.

There is a production optic FOR the Cree that is asperical. It's kahtoid? or something. It even has a holder for correct spacing.

Wayne, have you ordered the kathoid (sp?) apsherical optics to test with the cree too?

Wayne, be carefull DD'ing and test each led. Cree does not bin by Vf, so it's a lottery with the Vf. I have one that at 3.6x volts its not even pulling 700ma yet, but Chimo has one that pulls 700ma at 3.03v!!

DeCree-Duo? 2 leds in a head? That'll be interesting! The DeCree-Quad should be DeCree-Quatro!

Not binned by Vf and that big of variance will make it a headache to work with.

I've tried asperical lenses before and didn't care for the beam that much. I'll check into it.

DeCree-Quatro sounds interesting.

Wayne

easilyled · #30 11-21-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElektroLumens

Not binned by Vf and that big of variance will make it a headache to work with.

I've tried asperical lenses before and didn't care for the beam that much. I'll check into it.

DeCree-Quatro sounds interesting.

Wayne

The concept I have would be a regulated drive Cree light with an aspherical
lens that can be moved forward or backwards to adjust from having a spill
to a needlepoint beam.

Amonra modded an existing light like this and the results were pretty spectacular - here is the link:-

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...ght=aspherical