Corporate News - Announcement

[Blitzwing]

Hasn't apple been doing this for years with the ipod/ipad?

[Teej]

Hasn't apple been doing this for years with the ipod/ipad?

Essentially, everyone does it with everything...its business as usual.

Its why you see those ads with disclaimers that they can't post the price, etc.



If a company sells through independent dealers, and the dealers are stores for the product...then its not so much as price "fixing" as setting a price for the product.

If Verizon sells Droids, all the Verizon stores selling Verizon Droids have to charge the same for the Droid itself.

If Apple stores are selling imacs, all the stores sell them at the same price.

If Apple sells the imacs to a reseller, say an office supply store or online computer store...that store can sell it for less if they want to.

McDonalds tells its stores what the prices are...

But if you take an order for your office's lunch...and re-sell the burgers and fries for 1/2, or 2x, what YOU paid for them...Micky Dee's is out of the loop.

And so forth.

Its about how the chain of command is contracted.

[HKJ]

Note that you can always sell for MORE than the MAP/MSRP, just not lower. The idea here is not to have dealers undercut each other on the same product. Again, huge gray area discussions on this but enforcing MAP pricing isn't illegal.

That depends on country, around here it is illegal.

[naked222]

Hasn't apple been doing this for years with the ipod/ipad?

Yes; exactly why I won't buy their products, along with the fact that their products don't have replaceable batteries, need mostly everything associated with them to use other Apple hardware/software, etc.

Essentially, everyone does it with everything...its business as usual.

I think you (and a few other people here) have MSRP confused with MMARP (a phrase I coined myself to describe price-fixing, see post #50).

I'll use Oakley sunglasses as an example again. Many years ago I used to buy only Oakleys, mainly due to their bleeding-edge styles and outstanding warranty; essentially free replacement with no questions asked (unless you lose them, then you have nothing to trade in!). After losing many pairs (those were my partyin' days!), I got tired of paying a premium price for sunglasses, as Oakleys are sold everywhere for full retail (MSRP, or so I thought at the time) ; I stopped buying them.

A few years later, I was in a small, local, independent motorcycle shop, and I noticed a small display case of Oakleys on the counter; the prices were around 30% below MSRP, so I bought a pair. A few months later, I went back to buy another; the display case was gone. I asked the owner about it; he said Oakley had "caught" him selling their products for below MMARP (he explained price fixing to me at that time); he was no longer "allowed" to sell their products. After his experience, he said he'd never sell them again, even if Oakley "let" him! I haven't bought a pair of Oakleys since, and never will; same now with Sunwayman.

If Verizon sells Droids, all the Verizon stores selling Verizon Droids have to charge the same for the Droid itself.

A bad example; Verizon is not the manufacturer of Droids, and can sell them for any amount they want to. If this wasn't the case, you'd have to pay the full $499 MSRP (for example), not $49, $99, or $199 with a one or two year contract. But Verizon is charging the same price for the I Pad 3 as everywhere else, because Apple practices price-fixing.

Sam's Club lowered the price on I Pad 2, because Apple "allowed" them to, and only after I Pad 3 was announced; another form of price-fixing.

If Apple sells the imacs to a reseller, say an office supply store or online computer store...that store can sell it for less if they want to.

No, they can't.

McDonalds...

Bad example all together! Here were talking about companies practicing price fixing to keep prices artificially high; people eat McDonald's because of their low prices! Besides, "prices may vary" (see their commercials), especially between company owned (corporate) locations, and independently owned (franchised) locations; not to mention other countries!

Hope this helps, Tony

[kkeyser]

Well, this is disappointing.

[JAG]

no problem for me.

i don´t will buy any sunwayman-flashlight in the future !!!

[GoingGear.com]

Guys, this is not new or unique to SWM. Why do you think dealers all have the lights from all the brands for the same advertised price? If policies like this were not in place, you would have fly by night companies selling for 2% over cost or distributors selling for a small markup over their cost, which is generally a lot lower than dealer cost. New dealers would have no chance to compete and would dump the brand or never touch it in the first place.

If you don't like this policy, then you should never buy another flashlight, Xbox, Ipad, newly released video game, luxury watch, etc. SWM makes niche, premium products, not commodities.

By the way, price fixing is when competing companies agree to common pricing practices, not when a single company sets their own pricing. If SWM, Fenix, and JETBeam all got together and agreed to sell their similar lights for the same price, that would be price fixing.

[Ualnosaj]

Guys, this is not new or unique to SWM. Why do you think dealers all have the lights from all the brands for the same advertised price? If policies like this were not in place, you would have fly by night companies selling for 2% over cost or distributors selling for a small markup over their cost, which is generally a lot lower than dealer cost. New dealers would have no chance to compete and would dump the brand or never touch it in the first place.

If you don't like this policy, then you should never buy another flashlight, Xbox, Ipad, newly released video game, luxury watch, etc. SWM makes niche, premium products, not commodities.

By the way, price fixing is when competing companies agree to common pricing practices, not when a single company sets their own pricing. If SWM, Fenix, and JETBeam all got together and agreed to sell their similar lights for the same price, that would be price fixing.

I tried to explain the same in less words. Hopefully you have more luck




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Posted from my phone.

[notsofast]

So apparently their no free shipping policy is likely just words, something that they don't enforce.

[naked222]

Guys, this is not new or unique to SWM. Why do you think dealers all have the lights from all the brands for the same advertised price? If policies like this were not in place, you would have fly by night companies selling for 2% over cost or distributors selling for a small markup over their cost, which is generally a lot lower than dealer cost. New dealers would have no chance to compete and would dump the brand or never touch it in the first place.

If you don't like this policy, then you should never buy another flashlight, Xbox, Ipad, newly released video game, luxury watch, etc. SWM makes niche, premium products, not commodities.

By the way, price fixing is when competing companies agree to common pricing practices, not when a single company sets their own pricing. If SWM, Fenix, and JETBeam all got together and agreed to sell their similar lights for the same price, that would be price fixing.

I don't understand what you people don't get, especially you, GoingGear; I've bought stuff from you with a triple discount (MSRP, minus "sale" price, minus CPF discount, minus free shipping)! Under SWM's new policy, this WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED; period! And that my friend, is price-fixing! Or at least SWM attempting to set up the fix. If you agree to SWM's new pricing policies, then by your own definition above, you and any of the other dealers that also agree will be practicing price-fixing!

For example, you now sell the "Sunwayman V10R Ti+ Titanium XM-L Variable Output 1 CR123 LED Flashlight" for $168; MSRP (which will become MMARP) for that light is $200. Under the new policy, you will no longer be able to sell it for $168, you will be forced to sell it for $200! Plus you won't be able to offer free shipping or a CPF discount. If you agree with those terms, then you will be entering into a price-fixing agreement!

[Obsessed]

I don't understand what you people don't get, especially you, GoingGear; I've bought stuff from you with a triple discount (MSRP, minus "sale" price, minus CPF discount, minus free shipping)! Under SWM's new policy, this WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED; period! And that my friend, is price-fixing! Or at least SWM attempting to set up the fix. If you agree to SWM's new pricing policies, then by your own definition above, you and any of the other dealers that also agree will be practicing price-fixing!

For example, you now sell the "Sunwayman V10R Ti+ Titanium XM-L Variable Output 1 CR123 LED Flashlight" for $168; MSRP (which will become MMARP) for that light is $200. Under the new policy, you will no longer be able to sell it for $168, you will be forced to sell it for $200! Plus you won't be able to offer free shipping or a CPF discount. If you agree with those terms, then you will be entering into a price-fixing agreement!

Naked, I don't know you or GoingGear, but I can certainly tell you nothing you said is correct. Price Fixing, by definition (which the FTC enforces), is as follows (this is a quote from FTC.gov):

"Illegal price fixing occurs whenever two or more competitors agree to take actions that have the effect of raising, lowering or stabilizing the price of any product or service without any legitimate justification."

So, by this definition, if SWM wants dealers to sell an item for no less than $168, then that is perfectly legal. Now if GoingGear, BJ, Lighthound, [insert dealer here] all get together and say they will charge $200, THAT is price fixing. Please do research on subjects before you fly off the handle thinking you're an expert.

Furthermore, What you said about MSRP is also completely and utterly false. MSRP is the price manufacturers (such as SWM) set, to give consumers a "baseline" of what they should expect to pay as an upper ceiling. MSRP is NOT the price dealers are required to sell the item for. It is a guideline as the maximum markup a dealer can take on a product; manufacturers pricing policy does NOT stipulate the maximum price a dealer can charge, it stipulates the MINIMUM a dealer can charge; hence, this is why it is lower than the MSRP (and explains why naturally, 90% of dealers go with the minimum price - consumers are smart and want to pay the least, so they sell it at the minimum price and hope to make it up on volume).

Lastly, shipping, if done domestically, does not have to be paid for by the buyer; hence free shipping is completely acceptable. Worldwide is the keyword there.

Google and 5 minutes is all it takes to confirm all of this.

[sunwayman]

Dear Valued Sunwayman Customers,

It is with sadness that we have received negative feedback regarding our recent dealer policy updates. The commercial reality is that all manufacturers have to set a MAP and a MSRP, and Sunwayman has always done so. Sunwayman has decided to be transparent with our customers and we have come under fire for this decision. Sunwayman has been providing its dealers support by listing a MAP and a MSRP, as is the case with every other flashlight manufacturer. Such policies occur in all areas of retail, not just in the flashlight industry. These measures have always been in place, we simply have never enforced them adequately, nor have we posted them for all to see. As a result of not enforcing these policies, some of our dealers have been suffering. Sunwayman's dealers are an extension of us because they are our final contact point before the product reaches the customer. Our dealers could not survive without such support and could not pass on this support to the customer. Products would not be as easily accessible to you, our customers, without our dealers.

In a free for all, cut throat environment, the only surviving retailer would probably be an eBay member profiting by huge volume and very little profit on each flashlight. No other retailer could viably compete with this as our prices to the retailer are fixed. The hypothetical last remaining retailer would have a monopoly and therefore would not need to provide customers with a fair after sales service if it was not convenient for them. People would then have to wait a long time to receive their products as they would be coming from only one place on the planet. Once they become a monopoly, they could then also escalate the prices to much higher levels than they are currently and everyone would suffer, especially our loyal customers. Customers may wait long periods for dispatch. Such a scenario would ruin Sunwayman's reputation and viability, and we would cease to exist. By having these quality control measures in place and monitoring our dealers, we are ensuring the continuation of Sunwayman and the good reputation we have worked so hard for. Our goal is to provide our customers with consistent prices, quality flashlights, and excellent after sales service and we will continue to do so. Again, nothing has changed. These policies have already been in place since the start of our company and our lights have always been fairly priced. We wish for all our customers to be satisfied with our policies and we adopt those policies to benefit everyone: manufacturer, dealer, and the only reason for our existence and success, our dear valued customer.


Sincerely,
Sunwayman

[egrep]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

Your comments place things in a very self serving light. This seems more about preserving SWM sales and not protecting customers. Consumers would abandon SWM products if the situation you describe existed and something else would have to take its place. Someone will make and sell flashlights to supply the demand. It is the consumer who must be served, not the manufacturer. This is called a free and open marketplace.

[Bigmac_79]

... It is the consumer who must be served, not the manufacturer...

IMO, this is a pretty bad attitude.

In general, businesses that tell customers that they put the customer first tell their employees to make the customer think they are being put first, while still putting the good of the company first.

The consumer mentality, " I consume therefore I must be served what I wish to consume," is unhealthy for both businesses and their customers. The relationship between a customer and a business needs to be one of mutual benefit, both parties giving something they have in return for something they want. That's why I like to buy from companies that I want to see succeed.

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse brevity and typos.

[Teej]

I think both have to be served...as you can't have one without the other.

Business are in business to make money...most people go to work everyday to make money.

The business opens its doors every day to make money...and the employees stream in to work there to make money.

The customers don't want to SPEND money...they ALSO had to work to get THEIR money.

So, one side has a vested interest in GETTING the money...and the other has a vested interest in KEEPING the money.


The deal goes like this:

When the value of the product is perceived as being available for a reasonable price, the customer will exchange the money for the product.

THIS is the ONLY time the company GETS money.


If you ask for too much money...you get fewer sales, but a higher profit per sale.

If you ask for too little money, you have more sales, but at a lower profit per sale.


There is a point at which the number of sales and the profit per sale MAXIMIZE your profit...the sweet spot between your overhead and the volume needed to support the level of sales.

Companies do a lot of calculus to find that magic price point that results in maximum profit.....to AVOID overcharging, or Undercharging...for the product.


If Companies make a back room deal to artificially raise prices...between a lot of supposedly competing companies (Price fixing), so you can't get say gasoline to get to work to earn money for flashlights, etc...because ALL the gas stations, no matter what brand...are charging some outrageous price that's illegal. (Hmmm...maybe THAT's another example...)

If Exxon Mobil tells all of its dealers to charge $4.25/gal - that's NOT price fixing...that's the corporate calculus guys saying THIS is the magic number we need to maximize profit.


Shell, and Texaco can undersell them if they want to...and if TOO MANY customers are getting Getty instead of Mobil...Mobil might re-think the calculus that told them $4.25 was their magic #.


Sunwayman is NOT the only company selling flashlights, there are AT LEAST two others (Maybe MORE!), and, if you need a flashlight, and you feel that the Sunwayman light is not worth the price, considering what you can buy a different brand for, and that brand's value...you would simply buy the light that you perceived as the best value/met your needs best, etc.


If Sunwayman was in collusion with other makers, sure, then you COULD NOT just buy a different brand to get a better value. (Imagine if Surefire made it so ALL flashlights cost as much as theirs did?)


For the record, I don't own a single Sunwayman light....I don't have a dog in this fight.

I DO know that a LOT of companies set price limits to protect their dealer network, whether they do carpet cleaning, clean duct work, sell TV's, etc...its the same principle.


If you sell lights for a living (I don't, but I could see getting into it...), you have to sell the light for a certain percentage over your cost, to pay for the overhead, salaries, benies, taxes, etc...and if the profit margin drops below YOUR magic #, its not worth it to stock that item anymore.


If you and others like you stop ordering that light...the factory doesn't need to make as many, and there's less money for R&D, QA/QC, etc.

If you are the factory...you need a sales force to get enough volume to be worth HAVING a factory, etc.


So, you do the math, and figure out that you need to charge $50/light you make to be able to afford to make them, at a sustainable volume, etc.......and the dealers pay you the $50 per light, and sell them for $75, or whatever THEIR end of the magic numbers worked out to.

If some bozo on ebay gets the lights for $50 each, and sells them for $60 each....the dealers, that need them to be $75 to be worth stocking, don't get the sales...and stop stocking it.

The dealers stop stocking it, and those orders are lost.

Did the ebay guy replace all the dealers' orders? If he/they did, the factory can JUST sell to the ebay guy...and all is well.

But in real life, the ebay price merely becomes the perceived "Price" when you google the product, etc...and it just looks like the stealerships are over charging for the $60 light.

You then either buy the light off the ebay guy, or, you perceive the ebay guy as risky, and then perceive the product as lower value/more questionable quality (DX phenomenon, etc...)...and look for a "Quality Light" from a brand that is sold by reputable dealers, etc.

So instead of buying the light for $60 from the ebay guy, OR for $75 from Goinggear, etc...you look at the Surefire, Fenix or Foursevens offerings, etc...and buy one of them instead....from goinggear, etc...whom you trust.

You are not shocked to see a Tiny Monster on goinggear...but you might be shocked to see a DRY...because "THOSE are those cheap ebay lights"....and you would not expect a reputable dealer to stock that kind of light...and so forth.



COULD a factory/company NOT set a price? Sure, and they could let the remaining ebay/dealers duke it out. Some people WILL pay more to get a product from a reputable dealer rather than some guy on ebay.

But, in doing that, the company risks not having the sales volume needed to be worth having a factory.


So, let the chips fall where they may - this is all just my opinion, but as a matter of principle, I see this as being mis-perceived as being more sinister than simply typical corporate calculus.

I say let them roll the die...if they make more $, great, if they go out of business, great...its a free and open marketplace where the companies are free to make their own decisions, and rue/reap the consequences.


http://books.google.is/books?id=Ywa0...xisted&f=false

[Ualnosaj]

@naked222 GoingGear selling the Ti+ for $168 is perfectly fine by the way. Not sure where you got this $200 number from.


___________
Posted from my phone.

[naked222]

I say let them roll the die...if they make more $, great, if they go out of business, great...its a free and open marketplace where the companies are free to make their own decisions, and rue/reap the consequences.

I completely agree! Time will tell what enforcing "the measures that have always been in place, but simply have never been enforced adequately" will do to end-user prices and SWM's overall flashlight sales.

@naked222 GoingGear selling the Ti+ for $168 is perfectly fine by the way. Not sure where you got this $200 number from.

According to BatteryJunction, the "regular" price (MSRP) is $200, and the "sale" price (MAP) is $168; but according to Obsessed, "nothing you (me) said is correct", so don't pay any attention to my posts.

[Esko]

Sunwayman has been providing its dealers support by listing a MAP and a MSRP, as is the case with every other flashlight manufacturer. Such policies occur in all areas of retail, not just in the flashlight industry. These measures have always been in place, we simply have never enforced them adequately, nor have we posted them for all to see. As a result of not enforcing these policies, some of our dealers have been suffering. Sunwayman's dealers are an extension of us because they are our final contact point before the product reaches the customer. Our dealers could not survive without such support and could not pass on this support to the customer. Products would not be as easily accessible to you, our customers, without our dealers.
...
These policies have already been in place since the start of our company and our lights have always been fairly priced. We wish for all our customers to be satisfied with our policies and we adopt those policies to benefit everyone: manufacturer, dealer, and the only reason for our existence and success, our dear valued customer.

I tried to order Sunwayman products from Goinggear and Battery Junction. No problem (didn't proceed to the final checkout though).

I live in Europe and there is a local dealer(s?) in my country (luckily, they don't seem to charge extra and the company is an internet vendor). I guess your regional sales policy isn't very effective yet? If it was, it wouldn't make sense that I could place an order and buy my light from another continent. How would that protect my local internet distributor? Actually, I went through all the manufacturers that are sold by Batteryjunction and found only one single manufacturer with such a strict regional sales policy. The famous and infamous Surefire. I couldn't order their lights, it was "US only". At least you are in a good company with your policies.

Surely all manufacturers have sales policies. But they are not alike. Most of my lights are bought straight from the manufacturers, usually with lower total prices than it would have been if I bought them elsewhere.

Well. Thanks anyway, that your policy is to sell them for the same price everywhere. If I could buy the lights only through a local distributor and the price would be considerably higher than (for example) in the States, that would surely be a deal breaker for me.

1. Regional Sales Policy
a. All official SUNWAYMAN distributors/dealers can sell SUNWAYMAN products and develop sub-dealers within its assigned territory only.
b. All sub-dealers of official SUNWAYMAN distributors/dealers can sell SUNWAYMAN products within territory assigned by distributors only, no sales to other territories allowed.

[chesterqw]

is there a distributor or dealer in Singapore for sunwayman?

especially the newer models.

[scottyhazzard]

I had a big fancy post all written up... but then I thought, "Why enter the fray?" I don't really care. Whatever I post is going to piss off someone anxious to be pissed off. I could not leave well enough alone-(Condensed)... Business is business, arguably akin to natural selection and nature is cold and cruel. That is the way of the world. If you thought otherwise then, surprise! I hate to quote a bumper sticker, but I will, "Wag more, bark less."

SWM, nice touch- addressing the negative feedback. I like the lights you guys make, some enough to buy. I respect your business decisions. They are your decisions to make. Go for it!

PS. Can you start offering lights in neutral tints?

[Bigmac_79]

PS. Can you start offering lights in neutral tints?

Check CPF proper, there's a thread about a possible upcoming neutral run. I'd post you the link, but it's a big pain to try to do from a phone.

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse brevity and typos.

[scottyhazzard]

Excellent!

[sunwayman]

Dear Customers,

Sunwayman now specially provide V10R Ti+ care packages for your V10R Ti+, to keep your light looking new after daily use! Details please refer to the following,

1. The care package includes following parts:
1). 4pcs hex socket cap screws
2.) 1pc socket head wrench
3.) 2pcs smooth cloth
4). V10R Ti+ care gel: 1ml.

2. Instructions
A. Screws Replacing
Fixing the clip (be directed at the holes), using the wrench to tighten the screws up.

B. Adjusting the clip
Due to daily use of on and off clipping, the gap between clip and light may get bigger, if you like to adjust the clip back tight, only a few steps to go.
Firstly, loosen the screws off and take off the clip; secondly, fix and screw the clip back in a reverse direction (pointing the clip to the flashlight tail direction); lastly, slightly press the clip tail a few times to make the gap smaller will do.

C. Surface Care
It's necessary to maintain the surface of the V10R Ti+ in daily use due to the Titanium material used to make the light. Before using the care gel, please clean the surface of the light first, and then apply appropriate amount of gel on the smooth cloth, and use it to wipe the flashlight body back and forth to make the gel scattered evenly, after which using the cloth with gel to wrap the part that needs to be cleaned up, and make a circle/twisting the cloth in one direction to wipe the part, this will clean the light up and keeps it looking new.

3. How to get one?
1). Newly shipped V10R Ti+ will come with one care package;
2). Those already shipped, you can contact your dealer to obtain one.



SUNWAY OPTO-ELECTRONIC (GROUP) CO., LTD
2012-4-11

[us3rName]

Is this in response to the recent shipments of V10R Ti+?

[F250XLT]

I sent Going Gear an email, they said they don't have any...

[Bigmac_79]

Is the gel something that will help the switch function smoothly? If so, could it be applied to the switch on the V11R as well?

[Ualnosaj]

By the way the new lights come with a larger sized switch with some heavy lube applied.


___________
Posted from my phone.

[sunwayman]

Dear all,

Here is the link shows steps on how to replace switches assemblies of the V10R Ti+ and V11R when needed, thanks.


Best Regards,
SUNWAYMAN

[sunwayman]

Regarding Torpedo Name on the C10R

Dear All,

We noticed there is discussion on CPF about the Torpedo nickname on our newly released C10R. Firstly, we did not know it's been registered on flashlight, so it's not an intentional copy, we only thought it as a nickname for the model.

Tgwnn from MBI, the "Torpedo" trademark owner kindly contacted us to discuss the issue. After friendly negotiation with Tgwnn, we both agree to the following,

1- Existing first batch C10R (about 500pcs) will sell with no change to the label.

2- We declare "This limited use of the 'Torpedo' trademark is used under exclusive authorization of MBI, MatchBox Instruments."

3- After this batch, future C10R products will not use the word "Torpedo" on packages or flashlight body.



Sincerely,
SUNWAYMAN

[Obsessed]

It's nice to see a business stand up and do the right thing for a change...nicely done, SWM.

Now all you need to do is start those flashlight promotions back up. Lots of new models to give away!