CPFMarketPlace

[BillMPL]

As all of those who ever sold something on B/S/T know, there are almost no cases when seller actually makes any profit. We're using this section to get rid of the flashlights that we do not use anymore etc. That means that we sell them for much less than we paid for them (because of them being outdated models) and we have to add postal expenses, PayPal fees and now this??? How is this different from ebay then?
If I don't make any profit from the sale - what sense does it make to punish me with more fees? Peronally, I appreciate the great work that is done here, but I don't understand the reason for those fees taken from casual sellers. Dealers are another case and they should pay their contribution for the right to use the dealers section.
Just my opinion...
Michael.

Exactly! By far most sellers on B/S/T are not profiting.

[derfyled]

Since there is a difference between occasionnal selling and having a "cpf-store", can a system with something like 5 free selling/year can be considered, a kind "free occasionnal selling" thread ? Just an idea...

[pcmike]

The man makes a compelling case!

Since its not about money (CPF is raking in the donations and management has been quoted many times as saying that more money won't help the site), whats it about? The party line now seems to be that its to decrease commercialization of CPF. This is, of course, absurd. That commercialization exists because the users WANT it. If they didn't want it, there would be no market, and you wouldn't see things for sale because it wouldn't be profitable. Once again, its a fix for a problem that doesn't exist...Unless the "problem" is traffic on CPF. There you go. Instead of fixing the board so that it runs properly, we'll just decrease the traffic so it won't be so obvious...

[Carpe Diem]

Hi Sasha...

This comment from your post #54 would appear to state the main reason for the new upcoming change:


"Times change... the world moves on. I will be getting paid for the work that I do now."


I thank you for your direct and straight-forward response, and I, for one, am not at all critical of this motive. You undoubtedly put long hours into the feeding and caring of the CPF, and your efforts should not go financially unrewarded.

In the early days, when the CPF was young and its memebership small, those of us who were fortunate enough to be members participated in it with great enthusiasm....and primarily as a club sport. Those early days will always be fondly remembered.

Time changes everything, though, and since its early days the CPF has burgeoned with explosive force...primarily through your excellent new leadership and ownership. The CPF is still one of the most exciting places to visit...even if its romantic early days are now long gone.

I trust you to continue to be a good custdian of the CPF community, for you have proven to be a good leader in the past.

Best wishes to you in this new phase of the CPF.

[js]

. . . snip . . .

Now the messy part... I'm not real sure what to do with the Manufacturer's Corner. My first thought is to move it too over but leave the sub-forums (Elektrolumens, Sandwich Shoppe, Peak, HDS/Novatac, Arc) on CPF proper. Or... they can all be moved as well. I'm not real sure what would be best for the members and for those manufacturer's themselves. Perhaps they can chime in here??

The Custom and Mod B/S/T forums will stay on CPF proper. They best represent the original spirit of CPF.

. . . snip . . . (later post)

Don is not a dealer. He is not even a Manufacturer by my definition. As in... he is not mass producing a single (or multiple) product. The McGizmo forum will stay right where it is and where it belongs... Custom and Mod.

FWIW, my 2 cents would be, yes, keep the McGizmo and Shoppe and Arc and etc. forums here on CPF. To me, they "feel" very much like a custom/mod B/S/T thing, and I believe they should remain here on CPF proper.

As for CPFMP, I'm all for it. If this means that some sellers move over to ebay to sell, or abandon CPF entirely in favor of smaller, "freer" flashlight boards, well then so be it. I totally agree with the intent and spirit of this change. It is an attempt to make CPF be more like what it should be, to move more in the direction that it should move.

But, on the other hand, I agree that "the devil is in the details" and the implementation will be tricky. Given Sasha's experience, savvy, and track record, however, I rest easy. Relax guys, it will be done right. It will be done well and fairly.

As for Sasha/CPF making money, I'm all for it. No matter how much money it ends up being (and it won't be that much), it won't come close to truly compensating for the amount of work, time, effort, frustration, and b.s. that Sasha and the mods/admins handle every day, and have handled for many years now.

[seery]

We might as well go to ebay then, where there are 90 billion zillion potential buyers instead of the relative handful here.

+100 on that.

Buying and selling is 1/2 the fun and reason I hang around CPF.

Once this goes into effect, I'll be hanging around CPF 1/2 as much.

[martytoo]

Beam... not sure yet. I think it's a good starting point but obviously needs "tweeking". I'm going through all of the suggestions made previously (in that thread and others) and trying to put together something based on all of that.

Also tweeks will be needed to distinguish dealers from manufacturers. And excuse me for using the obvious, but if dealextreme.com makes a pact with a Chinese producer to manufacture his own line of lights (Dexlights) then would he be considered a dealer or a manufacturer if he wanted to post information about said house brand lights?

[pcmike]

I mean no offense, but just what exactly is this "DIRECTION" CPF should be moving in? Are you trying to say CPF should be purely about new flashlight technology and about one's own flashlight modifications? Give me a break, technology is brought about by people spending money. Don wouldn't have progressed as far as he has without people buying his products (be that companies in his capacity as a consultant or as a custom flashlight maker here). If he wasn't making money I highly doubt he could afford to do all that he has and continues to do. The same is true for scores of other people. If you go and piss off the people who spend money here, then you're not moving CPF forward, but rather backwards. You're stifling innovation by trying to turn more profit. As far as I've read in the past I never saw any sort of transparency in regards to what it costs to run CPF and how much money CPF brings it, but it would appear as though CPF generates enough money to stay afloat. I really have no clue why this transparency isn't in place. I mean look at Wikipedia, it's totally supported by its userbase (or at least was at its inception) and all donations are publically displayed and easily found on the site as are its budgets and so on and so forth. Transparency breeds trust....

FWIW, my 2 cents would be, yes, keep the McGizmo and Shoppe and Arc and etc. forums here on CPF. To me, they "feel" very much like a custom/mod B/S/T thing, and I believe they should remain here on CPF proper.

As for CPFMP, I'm all for it. If this means that some sellers move over to ebay to sell, or abandon CPF entirely in favor of smaller, "freer" flashlight boards, well then so be it. I totally agree with the intent and spirit of this change. It is an attempt to make CPF be more like what it should be, to move more in the direction that it should move.

But, on the other hand, I agree that "the devil is in the details" and the implementation will be tricky. Given Sasha's experience, savvy, and track record, however, I rest easy. Relax guys, it will be done right. It will be done well and fairly.

As for Sasha/CPF making money, I'm all for it. No matter how much money it ends up being (and it won't be that much), it won't come close to truly compensating for the amount of work, time, effort, frustration, and b.s. that Sasha and the mods/admins handle every day, and have handled for many years now.

[Coop]

Yet another thing I will have to pay for... This seriously kicked a big dent in CPFs image as the place on line where people actually do something for another without having to make a profit. Of course there are positive sides to this too, faster browsing of the forums due to the shared server load.

I guess my definite opinion on this will depend on the height of the fees. If it is going to be something like a small once a year fee to contribute in the running cost of the marketplace, no problem. But if it ends up in just filling pockets over the back of CPF-members, I think that would be just plain wrong.

And about that "I will be getting paid for the work that I do now." comment, I assure you that there are plenty of volunteers on the board, who are willing to take some of the work off your shoulders for free. Don't insist on bearing the weight of the world, and then bill the people who are willing but not allowed to help you out.

[cryhavok]

So will the moderators be working on a salary as well...?

[Freedom1955]

this might cure me of being flashaholic..

+1.

[grayelky]

If the b/s/t is taking a toll on CPF, then something has to be done (These words scare the h*** out of me!). A selling fee is not out of order. A previous poster mentioned allowing a certain number of free sells per year- he mentioned 5. This sounds like a good way to keep the spirit of CPF, yet let the people who have helped to build CPF (and I am a relative new-bee) also "benefit" from their efforts at making CPF a really great place to swap information. I have no problem paying a fee if/when I use the b/s/t section to "profit", as opposed to just moving excess stuff I am not using. I realize this is probably where Sasha is now: Trying to distinguish between the 2. I hope the CPF MP will be monitored, and adjustments made to allow folks who truly are just moving stuff they no longer use free use of b/s/t. Five dollars a month is not a lot if you are selling a lot, but it is very expensive for moving out 2 or 3 items you no longer use/want.

As things stand now, no one has a legitimate gripe on the use of the b/s/t section, as they have no fee involved. Once a fee structure is in place, then the subscribers have a right to make limited demands, as opposed to requests. I do not recall seeing a "sticky" asking for a certain amount or percent for use of the b/s/t sections of CPF. I would have had no problem making a "donation" for such use.

[Anglepoise]

Sasha.
A good positive step for the future.

[martonic]

Ms. Sasha,

If I am not asking something confidential, and speaking from the unenlightened position of a "new guy", may I inquire as to what actually prompted this action?

As a member of Spyderco's forum, I am familiar with a group's desire to prevent a forum from becoming just another ebay (SF has strict rules against B/S/T thereon). If your answer to my above question is as Empath implies, I wonder why you don't just prevent new b/s/t threads for being posted, and say 'finish your deals guys, cause we are reverting to just an intellectual illumination discussion site.'

Why even bother setting up a seperate server just for commerce?

Thank you.

The main reason seems to be to improve server performance by splitting traffic in a logical way. More sites and servers means more work and greater expenses - hence the fees.

As always, "the devil is in the details" and it may take some shaking out before the new site functions in a smooth and appealing way, as CPF does whenever the server is not overloaded.

Good Luck, Sasha, in making this work and in achieving a smooth transition.

[PoliceScannerMan]

This thread is better than TV.

[Phredd]

Before you finalize, I just want to suggest that fees for selling seem to make a lot more sense than fees for the buy and trade listings. Unless you only collect fees for a successful transaction.

Phredd

[charlesn]

There are many members of CPF who primarily visit and utilize the B/S/T forums. This is not a bad thing. However, it does take away from the original intent of CPF which was and is the discussion and developement of illumination tools.

The above seems to be THE main reason/justification for this change and, IMO, it completely misses the educational component that B/S/T provides for CPFers.

I've spent many hours (WAY too many!) combing B/S/T threads with no intention to buy or sell anything--it's just a great place to learn about lights and to see the best photos of them. In fact, I have learned more about flashlights and the development of illumination through the B/S/T threads than any other single forum on CPF. And, when I do come across a light for sale that really interests me, I can jump right to the CPF search function and find a complete history of information about it. That connection between B/S/T and CPF search is critical to educating yourself about a particular light and its history.

I am not opposed to a fee for selling on B/S/T, but I think it would be a huge educational loss to the CPF community to move these threads to a separate site.

[powernoodle]

Not that any what care what I think , but I'd rather see a small ad banner at the top of every page than a separate, pay-to-use B/S/T area. Glocktalk.com, just for example, has 69,586 members, a thriving B/S/T area, and is completely free. And the ads are no more instrusive than the three notices at the top of this page. I bet the list owner is bringing in some good coinage, which is a perfectly reasonable goal for Sasha or any list owner.

As for this being Sasha's board, that is of course completely true. It is also true that this is a symbiotic relationship between Sasha and the rest of us. If she goes away, CPF goes away. And if we go away, CPF goes away too. Its a two-way street.

cheers

[Mavzor]

Another forum I frequent. overclockers.com.au had a similar epiphany not too long ago. They found their trade forum was more popular than the rest of the forums combined. They considered fees, they considered closing their trade forums all together.
Instead, they kept it free, and made it no new items. What did that simple rule do? Remove the manufacturers and big dealers, kept the for sale forum just for hobbyists not dealing in large amounts of equipment.


Ultimately I view this change as a money grab. Sure, tax the businesses and bulk dealers getting coverage and sales in CPF, go a banner ad, close the BST forum if its too much trouble. But taxing the general flashaholic users who are fellow enthusiasts? Where is the love? What benefit will these new changes bring to the general enthusiast?

I then ask the question, what benefit is this bringing to the people who run CPF?

Let's look at a technical analysis.
Basic research can approximate the hosting costs for the technical hosting of CPF.

$79.95 USD will get you 3.9TB of transfer per month and 390GB of storage.

Or, if you really want to host a dedicated server
You can get one For $150 a month, 10mbit unmetered.
Both these options are way more that what is required to run a forum.
edit: after research I'll assume that you require more for CPF, in ways I cannot find or understand.

Edit below...
AFter some more research It's more than I thought.
$600 a month?
OCAU has with a larger, and more active userbase. Not to mention they have a larger past database of posts.And they are co-located in australia, where co-location is lets just say, about 10-30x more expensive than top20 capitals in the U.S.They run on only two servers.

I realise I'm drawing a lot of conclusions to a different forum, but they're similar communities, similar enthusiasm, and i used to think, similar goals.
With this edit I'm ending here, I'm going too much into my technical analysis. My point in describing this was mainly to highlight the low costs in running a forum. Sasha's work can be considered a full time job, and that's fine, as long as the funds for that come from the right place.


Add a once off vBulletin license for $160... And I ask the question, how much for-the-community feeling is going on?

To conclude: I implore you, reconsider this. Have some more pie, but take pie from those who have a bigger pie.

[IHA]

Making it a paid service, will not require to paid any kind of Tax to the US Government?

[thesurefire]

3 things,

first I don’t think cheers and jeers should be moved. Its not like its taking up all that much bandwidth, and I don’t think people should have to pay to see who’s good and who’s not, or tell others about it.

2rd, how much do you plan to charge? With bannerads already it seems like this is more a business venture to make significant side income then it is to better anything here.

3th, who’s maintaining this? CPF is down more then anyone else I visit. That’s fine, when Sasha has other things to do she has other things to do. When I'm paying for use, I better be able to use it, whenever I want.

Sasha, you seem to have given this significant thought, so what in your opinion would keep people selling their lights at the marketplace instead of on eBay? Are you going to be using any of the funds made at the marketplace to improve CPF?

[tysonb]

+1 with Mavzor - this is not a large forum by any means. I have put a few things on BSTfor lower prices simply because I have had thread input and 'discussions' with the members of this forum. I have even given several things away for that reason alone.

This move just seams odd.

I have 2 dedicated servers with better specs than what he posted, and they cost me only $89 per month. Take a look at 1and1.com, dedicated servers.

[thesurefire]

This is a side thought, but with a fee isn’t the marketplace then legally obligated to ‘settle’ disputes?

[qip]

"settle disputes obligation"

all it would need is a disclaimer and that selling here is a priveledge and your on your own ...and as for the fees im guessin would prolly go to the new server fund anyway for new b/s/t which kind of to me seems moot as why not keep it as is ,if it aint broke dont fix it unless i guess something is broke

[Empath]

In light of the last several posts' concerns and questions, I thought it might be helpful to make a re-read of the first segment of this thread. Especially, note these words from Sasha in her first couple of posts.

........ there will be fees on NEW sales threads posted to the MarketPlace.

Registration will always be free. Browsing will be free. Posting in any forum other than the Sales forums will be free. Fees will apply to Sellers posting new sales threads in the Sales forums. Buying will be free and trading will be free. Although if I see those abused, I will make "adjustments".

There is no mention of fees for anyone but sellers and dealers.

[CM]

I agree with the suggestion that sellers be allowed a number of "free" sales per year--maybe 3 to 5 or so. Those that are seeking to profit and are engaging in e-commerce can afford to pay the subscription--and should. I realize this is Sasha's board and she can do what she wants but hitting the occasional seller with a fee is not a good thing IMO. Heck even a "per use" fee would be OK with me. Just don't hit us with flat rate fee that will hurt the occasional seller but have very little effect on those that want to conduct business for profit and turn this place into a flea market. Just my 0.02....

[Greta]

... and people wonder what the "problem" is... the "problem" is that people don't read...

[MattK]

At first read I'm not a fan of this proposal. I don't mind if Sasha wants to make some money, as a matter of fact I'm totally fine with that. The issue I have is that I don't see any advantage to the community in splitting the forums up; all I can see is potential for harm.

As a dealer I have no problem supporting CPF, something I've always done by keeping my 'Supporting Dealer' tag active and paid up. I don't think it would be unreasonable to require any dealer to pay to post as a dealer, especially in the dealers forum. I'd also happily pay for extra PM mailbox space.

I would, and I suspect you'd find many dealers/mfrs. who feel the same, gladly pay for a banner ad, which would provide, I should think, the extra income desired from this site. Also, both Ricky at LumaPower and I have written asking for a dedicated Manufactures forum, which we would happily pay for, and I've never received a response. I would also be more than willing to provide a free reciprocal link though I cannot speak for others in that regard.

I believe that USERS as well as dealers/mfrs. benefit from the presence of dealers/mfrs. in the forums. The users are privy to far greater access than they would be otherwise and it results in a fantastic information flow that benefits all.

Frankly the : B/S/T Fees system proposed last year makes more sense to me than this - it doesn't divide the community it just says if you want to sell you must support; I think that's a solid idea and would win support from many of the folks objecting to this proposal.

I would ask that you reconsider this approach and further consider some other models for increasing the profititability of CPF.

[Added shortly after...] Another forum that I frequent, far larger than CPF, only allows 'advertisers' with paid banner ads to 'do business' on their forum. If you're not an advertiser you can only participate as a user and any type of selling/advertising by non-advertisers is strictly prohibited. They also have a free 'marketplace' for non-commercial sellers - linking to the marketplace from the forums is also prohibited to keep people from posting 'hey look what i'm selling,' type stuff.

[SoonerOne]

I'm not a big poster, yet, but I am a big reader. And as a person that has a Forum, though not this large, let me just say that I do not see this as a problem, only a benefit.

Running a site is not inexpensive, I strongly imagine the cost of running this site, in dollars alone, is not being paid for in it's entirety through donations. Add to that the time and attention it takes and it is not a money making proposition even if it were being paid for.

Manufactures and Dealers that participate in sites such as this, receive exposure and a form of very rudimentary advertising, sometimes the best kind, for free. We see them as very helpful and as people that are donating their time to help us, which they are indeed. However, they are in business, and using this site is one way of achieving sales, profits, relationships, repeat business, etc. A small cost, whether it's a dollar amount per sale, percent of sales, periodic usage fees or whatever Sasha decides upon, is a bargain for Manufacturers and Dealers. I predict you will not see a single one of them disappear or become less relevant than they are today.

A win-win relationship is what it's all about. I see it as beneficial for all parties concerned. If this site goes away because it can't be afforded, or running it becomes a burden, it benefits no one.

As far as the concern of prices going up to cover the cost of selling, I don't believe we'll see that happen. It would be an unwise move on the part of Manufacturers and Dealers to do so, and they know this. I don't have any idea what Sasha is considering charging and, it's none of my business but, I would bet my right arm that in the grand scheme of things it's a bargain for the parties being charged.

With that said, I strongly believe that allowing members, "not in the business" to buy, sell and trade without incurring any cost is the right thing to do, for obvious reasons. If John Doe has 30 flashlights and needs to liquidate for personal reasons, or if he just wants to offer them for sale in order to buy newer or different models, he should be able to do so without any limits on how many he can offer or sell. Chances are he's going to be buying something from the Manufactures and Dealers on the site anyway. So, thing will come back around, for everyone.

I hope I didn't overstep my boundaries on either side.

[cutlerylover]

Well, here is my thoughts...Some people dont want extra fees when they are already selling this without them, some people dont mind paying fees since its going towards either the forum or the people running it, but all in all, no one really wants to pay for fees if they dont have to, so right off the bat not everyone is going to love the idea of having to pay for something that has been free, no matter how low the fees actually are...Now, that being said, when this take effect Im sure we will lose a bunch of members...which is not really a bad thign, because I think CPF has gotten too big for its own good...The server is always but because too many people visit at once...

I dont really want to be paying extra to sell thgins here, but I at the same time I admit Sasha is being reasonable in only suggesting fees for people selling, not buying, or even trading!

The only thing thats annoyign to me is the fact that this is and will be a big argument here at CPF, I love to spend time on the forusm to escape the drama of life...Its a fun hobby, and I liek to keep my hobbies drama free if you know what I mean...Its really simple, the people running the forums make the rules, if no one likes it your free to leave...I personally don't think its a big deal...I am just wonderignabout the details like exacty how much in fees? Will the fees represent the value of the items sold? Or will it eb a flat fee per item, meaning it would cost the same to sell a custom light as it would to post a maglite for $10...?

Anyway I hate that everything revolves around money at some point...I understand it, I just don't like it....but times do change, and its not always for the better, but I think this will keep people in check, the oens actually making money by selling things on CPF...I am going to have to agree with Knot again on his statement, I think the fees for the most part will just be added on top of the cost of the items for sale...