4Sevens Design Philosophy #5 - Proportionate Design

[4sevens]

Both electronically as well as mechanically, every single bit of detail was considered and thought out. Not only features that are in the light but also features that are NOT in the light. For example, areas that don't have knurling are just as well thought out as well as areas with knurling. Every angle, facet and cut is premeditated.

Let's start with the circuit. So many of you have complained in the past about the various modes or levels of output are just too close to be useful - and I'm not talking about just one brand. We've given feedback to the respective manufacturers and most of the time these seemly small and insignificant details just falls on deaf ears. In fact, I have records of correspondence begging to address this issue.

What we've done is spaced our each level of brightness by a factor of 5x the drive current. All modes except the first and the last follow this rule.
5 dynamically spaced output modes simply meet every lighting need. Some asked us why not an "infinitely adjustable" output. Well, firstly there is no such thing as inifinite levels. There are always discrete levels of output. Perhaps 100 levels, or 256 levels - still there isn't an infinite level of modes to choose from - it's just a marketing gimmick. Secondly, we did consider this but we've settled on 5 discrete levels for the simple fact that theses modes can be INSTANTLY accessed without toying around with ramping up or down the brightness. Yes, some lights let you set to levels for quick access. Well, we feel our 5 levels (ranging from 0.21 lumens to 200 lumens out the front) will meet every single portable lighting application. Thirdly, with ramping, we get complaints about ramp speed all the time. Sometimes it's "too slow" so it was changed, then people complained "it's too fast," but then we counted the "too slows" the "too fast" complaints and they added up to be about the same in the new model. The fundamental problem is ramping is not the ideal solution. Fun and entertaining perhaps - marketing for sure. We settled on 5 modes with most modes with 5x the drive current difference. If you don't like that then I'm sorry, but here is our philosophy behind the design.

Now on to the exterior design of our lights. Upon initial inspection of our lights, they may appear quite plain and don't attract much attention. But two things are for sure. When it's turned on the output is shockingly bright (more on that in another philosophy in another thread). However, before you even turn it one, you notice that it's covered with knurling and not just knurling everywhere, the bands of knurling are tastefully placed and spaced out proportionately with non-knurled areas. The non knurled bands in the head and the tail match. The cut angles in the body match both ends.
Where the clip makes contact with the body mates is a flat surface. (I've worn these pre-production lights for over a month in my right pocked and I've yet to see wear on my pants). Three evenly spaced facets on the body not only provide engraving surface for our lights, they're also ergonomically placed. Holding the light with three contact surfaces (pencil style) will cause the light to fit snug and secure in your hand. Holding it with two fingers always ensures that at least one of your fingers is contacting knurling. And holding it fist style, well, you've got lots of grip there. The clip is just the right balance - it's not too short which reduces the anti-roll effect and would make it harder to use due to less of a gap under the clip. This not too tall, which would make it stand out and look and feel awkward. The clip placement is purposeful too. Our clip does not sit at the very end of the tailcap. It sits slightly forward so that the tail (knurled) is easily access anytime you need to summon light. Lastly, twisting the head to switch between high and low modes has a very very firm feel due to tight tolerances and the square threads. An 1/8 of a turn is all that is needed to change from high to low. Wiggling the head will not accidentally switch modes. In fact, there isn't much wiggle room at all.

Ok, it's friday night so I'm going to stop here, but hopefully I've left you some thoughts to muse over this weekend :)

[csshih]

This light is getting too hype-y now..
it better make or break beyond the expectations!

I wish most releases were like this.. but that involves allot of typing. :thumbsup:

[wapkil]

What we've done is spaced our each level of brightness by a factor of 5x the drive current. All modes except the first and the last follow this rule.
(...)
Well, we feel our 5 levels (ranging from 0.21 lumens to 200 lumens out the front) will meet every single portable lighting application.

Can you tell us what is the lumen output of the intermediate levels? Will it be like 2.5, 15 and 66 lumens or more like 5, 25 and 110?

I think I would prefer the former (because of the longer runtime) but either way I think it's a great design. Three regular levels accompanied by super low and turbo should indeed be sufficient for all my needs :)

[NonSenCe]

So it got 5 separate output modes and they are separated by twisting the head? 3-2 or 4-1?

"Lastly, twisting the head to switch between high and low modes has a very very firm feel"

so i guess its 3 and 2. dim-low-medium and high-turbo on other side?

i would think it would be better to be dim-low-high on one side and turbo-medium in other side.

both sides would have a usable high output and decent "lower" mode too. just choose which you likely need 1st when turning the light on.. high or dim and twist accordingly.

no mode memory needed because all the modes are easy access with just few taps or one twist away.

it would then be a simplified version of "my ideal edc" dream heh. mine was programmable, 4 levels via twist ring and with 3 modes each level.

[nudel1]

yeah, +1 there should be a resonably high mode in the "low mode" section just like in the fenixes. low -medium high- .... tighten head: turbo - high. so that if i`m in the low modes i can still have a decent bright output like 70 % without having to tighten the head. Fenix has done that pretty good i think.

If in a "one hand to use only" situation that i have the light in low mode and suddenly need more light+
action is going on that i need the other hand for i should be able to get to a pretty high brightness without having to fuddle around and try to tighten the head. I think the only useful purpose of the head tightening and loosening should be to be able to start in eighter high or low mode FIRST. It is limiting to only have low to medium modes when head is unscrewed and only high/turbo when tightened. More useful would even be to have same modes doubling in both configurations. For example in low mode to have . lowlow-low-medium-high and in high mode to have : Turbo-high - or even turbo -high-medium.

The basic range of output levels should be available from the low mode and some from the high mode. To just divide low modes in bezel unscrewed and high modes in bezel screwed on would be very unpractical.

[jabe1]

Can we please get an approx. ETA?

[scottaw]

I hope head turning isn't the only way to adjust brightness. But if its turn the head to select with a tailcap switch, i'm in.

[BentHeadTX]

If I was to guess,
I would say it has dim-low-medium when the head is in low position with output of 0.2, 4 and 20 lumens. High would be 100 lumens with "turbo" whatever the light maxes out at. Twist for high low modes with the tail clickie selecting the levels with memory. Set your two levels and use it as a 2 stage twisty. :popcorn:

[nudel1]

OMG please NOOO memory ! That would destroy the whole purpuse of the head switching mechanism...

[wapkil]

If I was to guess,
I would say it has dim-low-medium when the head is in low position with output of 0.2, 4 and 20 lumens. High would be 100 lumens with "turbo" whatever the light maxes out at.

I think that if the third mode is 20 lumens, Hi would be around 90 - LEDs output is nonlinear. Also if there is a 250mA limit for NiMHs in the AA format, the maximum output would have to be lower for them, around 60 lumens. Is there a lower Hi and 60 lumen turbo for NiMHs or the turbo is disabled (same as Hi)? :shrug:

EDIT: I have once again read about the 250mA limit, and it's "1.5v source is limited to 250ma due to battery limitation". So maybe the 250mA limit is not for NiMHs, only primaries?

[victor01]

I would also be in if it has selector ring and MCU tail switch.

hay!! how about having the selector ring at the tail cap?

[greenlight]

I hope someone's paying attention to all this great input and is considering it accordingly.

[MichaelW]

What holiday will these flashlight be available by?
Memorial day?
4th of July?
Labor day?
equinox
halloween
thanksgiving
x-mas
new year

[Nitecore1]

[quote=Customerservice@4Sevens.com; "Secondly, we did consider this but we've settled on 5 discrete levels for the simple fact that theses modes can be INSTANTLY accessed without toying around with ramping up or down the brightness. "

First of all, this light series as a "tool" sounds awesome so far (like I might buy one of each)! Although I am getting a little anxious for more Pics and an ETA...:tired:

Second, I am confused on the output switching and how it will work? Do you have to turn the head tight then loose each time to cycle through all 5 levels of brightness, is that what was meant by "INSTANTLY"?

Lastly, does the light always come on in low low or turbo then go from there by tighten/loosen, or does it have memory. And is there a tailcap switch for momentary on?

I apologize if these questions have been addressed already or even if they haven't :naughty:...long threads leading up to this one.:grin2:

[liquidsix]

The fundamental problem is ramping is not the ideal solution. Fun and entertaining perhaps - marketing for sure. We settled on 5 modes with most modes with 5x the drive current difference. If you don't like that then I'm sorry, but here is our philosophy behind the design.

Everyone's heard my rants. I whole heartedly agree that 'infinite' level ramping is useless. It is just marketting/gimmicky and because of it a very important detail is always left out: The Runtimes!

5 modes sounds perfect, now it all comes down to the UI which I think will either make, or break the light for alot of people. Some like memory mode because they don't want the tedium of having to cycle modes every time they turn on the light. Some don't like memory mode because they can't remember themselves what mode the light was left on in (?), and that's horrible because it can ruin night vision. The safest bet is to have some variant of a selector ring. I'm curious to see what this UI is going to be.

[regulator]

This sounds very nice! I like all the design decisions so far and it sounds like a great light. Great output/runtime levels, simple design (without klingon bezels and multiple diameters and various add ons - I hope). My last criteria is that it is not oversized for the cell it will use. I hope it makes efficient use of space/size and is as compact as necessary.

Boy - depending on what this light is and when pictures come out, I may decide on this rather than the Titan that I have my sites on. I hope info is released soon because I would hate to have already spent available funds on the Titan.

[swiftwing]

I'm divided at the moment on the UI. 5 instantly accessible modes with nicely seperated outputs sound like music to my ears, but the twisty remark worries me. I'm not a huge fan of Fenix's twist to select mode and soft press to switch output levels. The UI will basically make or break my pre-order decision at this point.

[BentHeadTX]

I'm divided at the moment on the UI. 5 instantly accessible modes with nicely seperated outputs sound like music to my ears, but the twisty remark worries me.

Wonder if a selector ring is in the plans? If so, wonder when the pictures are coming out? :popcorn:

[regulator]

NEED PICTURES! :mecry::mecry::mecry:

[PhantomPhoton]

I agree with most of the previous posters. In the end UI will make or break the light. And the tough part of this is virtually on one will ever agree on what the UI should be. So all I can say for now is hopefully it'll agree with me. Programmable, direct access to modes, no memory no scrolling. My initial thought is 5 modes are too many as that'll make accessing some modes require more than 2 clicks or require me to use two hands to twist something... or else I have to scroll thru another mode to get to the one I want. (yeah I'm a tough customer) I look forward to what you have worked up and look forward to the fully regulated 18650 model.
:whistle:

[swiftwing]

Wonder if a selector ring is in the plans? If so, wonder when the pictures are coming out? :popcorn:
:paypal::party:

Honestly, if i see 2AA, x-modes (where x is 3 to 5), and selector ring, i'll pre-order it immediately. Anybody with me?

[victor01]

:paypal::party:

Honestly, if i see 2AA, x-modes (where x is 3 to 5), and selector ring, i'll pre-order it immediately. Anybody with me?


A selector ring and decent switching mechanism is enough to push me over the edge. Though I may have to sell my D10 to fund this.

[BentHeadTX]

:paypal::party:

Honestly, if i see 2AA, x-modes (where x is 3 to 5), and selector ring, i'll pre-order it immediately. Anybody with me?

But if a 1AA/2AA light comes out with an XPG, current regulation, waterproof, great HA3, pocket clip, perfect knurling, selector ring UI what will I do then? Be content?

[copperfox]

I will comment about the UI of the prototypes that I handled.

Tightened head will give you high. Soft press the clicky and you get strobe. When the head was tightened it did not seem to have memory; it always turned on in high, even if you turned if off in strobe.

With the head loosened it will start in lowest mode (prototype was 1lm) then with each soft press of the clicky it would jump to the next highest. There were three or four brightness modes with the head loosened (can't remember). Although Dave said that it had memory, it only worked sometimes for me. It seemed a bit glitchy, and I chaulked that up to it being a prototype. I trust the bugs will be worked on before final release.

I'm not personally crazy about the UI in general because I believe all brightness changing functions should either be in the head twist or in the switch, but not mixed between them. My favorite UI is the Fenix L1T and/or Eagletac P100A2, however I would prefer three brightnesses of 2, 20, and 200lm instead of these I mentioned which only have two.

I am glad Dave has realized that most flashlights have brightness modes that are too close to each other. He's on the right track.

[qip]

I will comment about the UI of the prototypes that I handled.

Tightened head will give you high. Soft press the clicky and you get strobe. When the head was tightened it did not seem to have memory; it always turned on in high, even if you turned if off in strobe.

With the head loosened it will start in lowest mode (prototype was 1lm) then with each soft press of the clicky it would jump to the next highest. There were three or four brightness modes with the head loosened (can't remember). Although Dave said that it had memory, it only worked sometimes for me. It seemed a bit glitchy, and I chaulked that up to it being a prototype. I trust the bugs will be worked on before final release.

I'm not personally crazy about the UI in general because I believe all brightness changing functions should either be in the head twist or in the switch, but not mixed between them. My favorite UI is the Fenix L1T and/or Eagletac P100A2, however I would prefer three brightnesses of 2, 20, and 200lm instead of these I mentioned which only have 2.



i like the fenix ui , sounds exactly like fenix LXD general /turbo .....so if we can get output/efficiency just like fenix and knurling design like nitecore/novatac it would be a sweet light imo :) sounds all good but we still need pics and effieciency reviews


hehe its sounds like something i had hoped for a while , novatac knurling on a fenix circuit (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2501359&postcount=5)

[nudel1]

i like the fenix ui , sounds exactly like fenix LXD general /turbo .....so if we can get output/efficiency just like fenix and knurling design like nitecore/novatac it would be a sweet light imo :) sounds all good but we still need pics and effieciency reviews


hehe its sounds like something i had hoped for a while , novatac knurling on a fenix circuit (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2501359&postcount=5)


I like the fenix type ui also but if this light has a memory then i`m out.

I sure hope the memory can be turned off otherwise the head tighten loosen thing is almost worthless. :(. Darn i hate memory... i need a light which will turn on on the same setting every time i turn it on no matter where i turned it off. I don`t want to have to remember in which mode i turned it off 3 days ago. The worst thing is to stand or wake up in total darkness and blow your nightvision totally because you forgot to "set" turn off the light to lowlow hours or even days ago.

Please make it able to turn the memory "disfunction" off , or to order one without memory PLEEAAASSSEEEEE:candle:

[swiftwing]

But if a 1AA/2AA light comes out with an XPG, current regulation, waterproof, great HA3, pocket clip, perfect knurling, selector ring UI what will I do then? Be content?

No, you wish for it to be in the 5A tint duh :whistle:

I'm not very sold on the UI at this point honestly, as i've said, i'm not a big fan of the Fenix digital UI where you have to twist and soft press. Shall have to seriously consider picking up another warm white EZAA if that turns out well. A 5A tinted 2AA light would put me right on the edge with the fenix UI, not quite enough to push me over, but close.

[BentHeadTX]

A 5A tinted 2AA light would put me right on the edge with the fenix UI, not quite enough to push me over, but close.

Would it push you over if he included a very small Shamwow to clean the lens?

[sbebenelli]

Would it push you over if he included a very small Shamwow to clean the lens?

In the next 30 minutes because we can't do it all night :devil:

[Sgt. LED]

Would it push you over if he included a very small Shamwow to clean the lens?
:paypal: :laughing:

[Beacon of Light]

You followin this camera guy?

In the next 30 minutes because we can't do it all night :devil:

[Toohotruk]

DX lights last a month, Quark lights last forever...they sell themselves! :shrug:

[Beacon of Light]

You're gonna love my cough... nuts.... cough.... I mean "quarks"

[qip]

philosophy is great and all but :) http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3892/postpics.gif (http://img37.imageshack.us/my.php?image=postpics.gif)

[4sevens]

Ok... fine. We just finalized the packaging, so here's a little foretaste.
http://chows.smugmug.com/photos/543862435_n2uyB-M.jpg

[nudel1]

Wow ... the clip is ... short kind of. Was hoping that it attaches higher on the head when bezel up carried for deeper carry for example. Well I´ll just carry bezel down anyway. Where does it attach for bezel down carry? on the tailcap ? I sure hope it is an optical illusion that the head of the light is almost half of the whole lights length. That would probably be a bit hard to screw the head one handed with my fingers when part of the head is covered with my hand necessary for holding the light.

[4sevens]

Wow ... the clip is ... short kind of. Was hoping that it attaches higher on the head when bezel up carried for deeper carry for example. Well I´ll just carry bezel down anyway. Where does it attach for bezel down carry? on the tailcap ? I sure hope it is an optical illusion that the head of the light is almost half of the whole lights length. That would probably be a bit hard to screw the head one handed with my fingers when part of the head is covered with my hand necessary for holding the light.
This is why I didn't want to release pictures yet. It doesn't represent the product. Keep in mind the clip/body reverses and reversed the clip will clip against the smooth area around the head. In fact, it will ship with the other orientation. Also all models share the same clip. This is just the 1xAA.
Anyway....

[qip]

so show us the real product "real pics" :D ...it looks good i like it

maybe i missed it but these models have no SOS do they,just strobe on turbo

[monanza]

The picture tells a good story. Looking forward to the quarks. Sign me up.

[nudel1]

This is why I didn't want to release pictures yet. It doesn't represent the product. Keep in mind the clip/body reverses and reversed the clip will clip against the smooth area around the head. In fact, it will ship with the other orientation. Also all models share the same clip. This is just the 1xAA.
Anyway....

Yeah I`m only interested in the 1AA ;) that`s why i was "worried". Anyway I`ll just wait for real Pictures and/or the real light. Take your time ... i don`t wanna be a beta tester;)

+ with all this attention to detail i hope it (aa model) doesn`t get bigger in size then it`s closest contender (fenix LD10)!

.

[regulator]

Ok... fine. We just finalized the packaging, so here's a little foretaste.
http://chows.smugmug.com/photos/543862435_n2uyB-M.jpg
This is why I didn't want to release pictures yet. It doesn't represent the product.

So does the light actually look different than what is shown in the picture? Looking at the post about "Square Threads" the body tube does not flare at the ends like what is shown here.

[4sevens]

This is why I didn't want to release pictures yet. It doesn't represent the product.

So does the light actually look different than what is shown in the picture? Looking at the post about "Square Threads" the body tube does not flare at the ends like what is shown here.Good eye. The non-flaring body was for the cr123a. The final version will all have flares. It increases grip-ability and reduces unnecessary mass.

[4sevens]

Ok heres a cool picture for those of you who can't make it to the Bladeshow to see the pre-production pieces.

This was printed on our 3D printer. I paused the printing and snapped some pictures :)
http://chows.smugmug.com/photos/503119632_cU8rd-L-1.jpg

[Zeruel]

FINALLY.

Yeah, the clip is erm....
But as a whole, looks like it's going to be a great light. :popcorn:

Bah, go the whole nine yards and show us the real deal. :poke:

:D

[4sevens]

FINALLY.

Yeah, the clip is erm....
But as a whole, looks like it's going to be a great light. :popcorn:

Bah, go the whole nine yards and show us the real deal. :poke:

:D
Thats the problem. We wont' have production pieces until next week.
I don't want to show the pre-production pieces.

The clip is very solid. no screws or funky attachment pieces. The stainless clip goes right into the body and is securely held "inside" the light. It's hard
to explain. Basically, whether the clip is on or off, the lines of the light remain sleek.

[swiftwing]

!!!!!
You have a 3D printer and never mentioned it before?

Do want.

[4sevens]

!!!!!
You have a 3D printer and never mentioned it before?

Do want.
Yeah :) We print all kinds of things that are impossible to manufacture.
a ball in a cube in a ball in a cube :)
http://chows.smugmug.com/photos/241183893_n9rHo-M.jpg
http://chows.smugmug.com/photos/241181552_VyjCW-M.jpg

:D
http://chows.smugmug.com/photos/245909366_4XV7U-M.jpg

[Sgt. LED]

That'd be the only Spy I could afford! Cool printer.

What's it do when you stick your butt on it! http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/images/icons/yellowlaugh.gif
Any ladies near willing to try an experiment?
I quit, I quit! :whistle:

[NoFair]

Wish the clip would let it ride lower, but I usually clip my lights using a small Surefire clip from their lanyards:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/svhas/IMG_6228.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q164/svhas/IMG_6232.jpg

[4sevens]

Wish the clip would let it ride lower, but I usually clip my lights using a small Surefire clip from their lanyards:
I just put an extreme and one of our lights side by side and the clip is more compact and sits LOWER. I think it's deceiving because our lights are much more compact without lots of stuff going on on the exterior.