Blaster VI, 'Brightness Verses Reliability

[ElektroLumens]

The Blaster VI is using a couple of ohms resistance. The reson is to prolong the life of the already short lived white 5W Luxeon Stars. I'm considering reducing the resistance a little. This would increase brightness, and probably would not much affect the reliability of the flashlight.

My question is, do most people want the increased confidence of reliability, or are they more concerned with obtaining the brighter light, with a possibility of the LED not lasting as long?

Wayne j

[snuffy]

I would trade brighter light for reliability. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
That's why I bought the 5 watter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Gimpy00Wang]

I agree with snuffy. If you want to sweeten the deal, make the luxeon user-replacable (which I believe you are planning anyway). That way, if someone does blow a luxeon, they need just order a replacement...kinda like a M@g poop. However, even with the 5W's shorter life, it will last a heck of a lot longer than the average M4g bulb!

- G!mpy

[BuddTX]

It was tempting to just write "BRIGHT AS DAMN POSSIBLE!!", but as you are doing this as a business now, you deserve a well thought out answer.

For a high end flashlight, such as you are selling, I would expect one of these:

voltage regulator for constant brightness (efficient as possible)
dc to dc converter (smaller size/lighter weight/)
(maybe a combo of the two above)
OR
direct drive with a very efficient and reliable heat sink, so that the light can be as bright as possible.

I would NOT expect a resistor.

A resistor, just burns up any extra energy, but doesn't do anything with the power.

I understand why manufacturers put resistors in their lights, so that they do not fail, and do not get returned for replacement. But, they sacrifice getting the max out of the battery and led or bulb.

If I am going to give up max brightness, I either want increased run time, smaller size, and/or constant even brightness.

These are some of the things I expect in a high end flashlight. Now that some mainstream flashlight manufacturers are coming out with 1 and 5 watt LS, you need to differentciate yourself by offering "more" than the competition.

I would consider you to be a "super high end" flashlight manufacturer.

[ufokillerz]

[ QUOTE ]
Gimpy00Wang said:

I agree with snuffy. If you want to sweeten the deal, make the luxeon user-replacable (which I believe you are planning anyway). That way, if someone does blow a luxeon, they need just order a replacement...kinda like a M@g poop. However, even with the 5W's shorter life, it will last a heck of a lot longer than the average M4g bulb!

- G!mpy

[/ QUOTE ]

the luxeons in the blaster VI and V are USER replaceable as it is.

[Gimpy00Wang]

Hehehe...I'm still waiting to receive mine so I wouldn't know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif How much room is left in the light? Enough to add in a regulator?

- G!mpy

[ QUOTE ]
ufokillerz said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gimpy00Wang said:

I agree with snuffy. If you want to sweeten the deal, make the luxeon user-replacable (which I believe you are planning anyway). That way, if someone does blow a luxeon, they need just order a replacement...kinda like a M@g poop. However, even with the 5W's shorter life, it will last a heck of a lot longer than the average M4g bulb!

- G!mpy

[/ QUOTE ]

the luxeons in the blaster VI and V are USER replaceable as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bill.H]

Wayne,

I think you have to ask yourself what your customer base is. I believe (from some of your past comments) you are looking to sell to LEOs. In that case, reliability is CRITICAL. I think we can also safely assume a majority of the flashaholics want brightness.
Seems to me you'll have to make a choice one way or the other - OR - you can also make the guts like the heads; a regular model and a police model. A third possibility is to sell the unit with a resistor that can be easily removed or just shorted out - if you wish to just reduce (not eliminate) the resistance, leave a place for to add another resistor in parallel. I like this third option best myself, since I'll take battery life over brightness... but I want BOTH /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BuddTX - a resistor DOES do something with the power, it reduces it. In an analog circuit, voltage and current are proportional. By increasing the resistance, you lower both the voltage and the current. The energy is not "thrown away", rather, it's left in the battery (some is dissipated as heat, this is minimal, you can basically ignore it). Feel free to PM me with any questions about why this is so.

Congrats on your own Forum, Wayne!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Rothrandir]

a switch in the head would be ideal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

if you want max brightness, you turn the switch to off, if you want to use resistance...turn the switch to on.

this of course would add extra cost and make it more difficult to make, but give customers on both sides what they want.

i guess you can think of it as a high/low switch also.

[bucken]

Wayne,

Do you have dis-assembly instructions for your Blaster series anywhere? This would be very helpful for anyone who wanted to change the luxeon, add a regulator, change the resistance, etc. Warranty gets voided when parts get changed, of course.

[ufokillerz]

i think Wayne said somewhere the the heatsink base is screw on via some threads inside the body? Not exactly sure how it works, but it appears there should be a compartment where the resistor is in. Might have space for a regulator in it, someone should go void their warranty and tell me =\

[ElektroLumens]

[ QUOTE ]
Rothrandir said:
a switch in the head would be ideal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

if you want max brightness, you turn the switch to off, if you want to use resistance...turn the switch to on.

this of course would add extra cost and make it more difficult to make, but give customers on both sides what they want.

i guess you can think of it as a high/low switch also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already did this mod for one person. Take off the head and there is a tiny switch. Low and high.

Wayne j

[ElektroLumens]

[ QUOTE ]
bucken said:
Wayne,

Do you have dis-assembly instructions for your Blaster series anywhere? This would be very helpful for anyone who wanted to change the luxeon, add a regulator, change the resistance, etc. Warranty gets voided when parts get changed, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll write up a document. I have done many mods direct drive from 3 D cells. That means about 1.5 amps with new alkalines. Most of the time the Luxeon Star can take it, but not always. Also, degredation of light might be occuring. Anyway, I have to limit the current.

Any modification to the flashlight obviously voids the warranty. I could put some sort of seal on the flashlight, sort of like is on electronic components. If the seal is broken, the warranty is void. It has been pointed out to me I need to have some sort of warranty written up, and I plan on it.

Wayne

[Kercheval]

Modding instructions for these lights would be very nice, Wayne (with all warranty voiding caveats, of course). The amount of space around that switch assembly looks wonderful for the type of circuit boards us ham handed electronics geeks go for (the nimble types go with SMT stuff). It looks like there would be enough room to heat sink a decent regulator right up against the battery tube with a T0-220 or similar package.

Please announce when you do publish this (if someone else doesn't get antsy first and unscrews that little nut at the top of the battery tube).

Oh, BTW, good luck full-timing it...

jbk

[radellaf]

A little NiMH/Li switch would be a nice addition if it wasn't too hard to put in. Would give you two (sane) power levels for NiMH, one for Li.


Crosspost:
Just measured the R in mine at 2.6 ohms, and i is 650mA, Vf=6.55.
So Vr=R*i=1.69V (*i=1.10W) vs Vf*i=4.26W, Eff=74.2%
Vbatt=8.24 or 2.75V per cell

Not too shabby. 50mA shy of the most I want to see going through that LED, and efficiency at worst on a so-so level for a DC-DC.

With NiMH, though, I predict current in the 200-300mA range....hmm, I think I can rig a test...aha! 400-450mA is what I'm getting, about 2.5W for the LED. Eh, a little low but a reasonable compromise for sane Li currents I suppose. Were I only going to use NiMH I'd drop the R to about half what it is, though. Well, with these short lived luxeons, maybe not...that's still a notch brighter than a 1W and should run 4-5 hrs off 1800mAh cells, making for a rather useful if not stunningly bright flashlight. Wonder which is shorter lived, a Luxeon V at 400mA or a 1W luxeon at 700mA (which would be dimmer but I doubt by much).

[Icebreak]

Brightness and longevity over here, Wayne.

Because you are now a manufacturer and because a member has posted pics of the Blaster VI's insides, I think even my untrained fingers could change out the 5W LS. So, in a VI I would prefer bright or a switch that allows resistance toggling. If you wouldn't mind doing something like this to the VI you are allowing me to purchase, I would be pleased to do what you require to have that happen.

Another post mentioned your contracts. I'm sure that your focus on those customers would remain high. You know what your contracts require. I'm thinking this question is another example of your extraordinary considerations toward CPF flashaholics.

I also have a V on order. For that flashlight, I prefer longevity. That is a light that I may use for 6 hour, constant-on situations...possibly 3 nights in a row without feeding.

[Icebreak]

I went to edit the above post and time had expired. On the VI I was sure the end result would be at least twice as bright as a II but some of the first impressions seem to indicate only slightly brighter. So yea, for my uses of a VI; brighter would be better.

[ResQTech]

[ QUOTE ]
Icebreak said:
On the VI I was sure the end result would be at least twice as bright as a II but some of the first impressions seem to indicate only slightly brighter.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone verify this with a VI vs II beam shot comparison??

[paulr]

Mr. Bulk (an LEO himself) has made and sold quite a few direct drive Space Needle II's and apparently they work ok. Just a data point.

[ElektroLumens]

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
Mr. Bulk (an LEO himself) has made and sold quite a few direct drive Space Needle II's and apparently they work ok. Just a data point.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, Mr Bulk sells them direct drive. I was doing this long ago, even before he was around, modifying 2D Maglites to use 3 C cells, direct drive, and even 3D Maglites, direct drive.

I saw the heat sink Lambda had used, with the fins. I even had some already in my bins. I thought they were too hard to work with, and rejected them in favor of the flat heat sink as a better option.

As the new 5W white Luxeon Stars are rated at only 1,000 hours, and not the full life 100,000 hours, I have elected not to overdrive them in my Blaster VI. I want them to last a long time.

The light increase is substantial by going direct drive, but just imagine, I sell hundreds or even thousands of Blaster VI flashlights direct drive, and then they start going dim after a few months. I have them all coming back for replacement. That would be a huge expense. Will this happen? I don't know.

The light output will gradually degrade over time. If the 5 watt Luxeon Star, which only has a 1000 hour life span to start with, is overdriven, you will begin to see degredation of light output, much sooner. Is this really so? Mainly it depends on how well the heat is dissipated, and how cool the 5W is kept. The Blaster VI has superb heat sinking. If anything can keep the 5W cool, the Blaster VI can. But I have chosen to be reserved on how much power to apply to the Blaster VI. I figure that most CPF members are adept enough to simply swap out the resistor, or even remove it. Also, I offer to do this for you. I will go to .5 ohms resistance, and still cover the LED under warranty, for 1 year from date of purchase. If you go direct drive, or ask me to do this for you I will. But I don't think it fair to ask me to warranty the LS, as it will be powered up over 1 amp, well over specs.

For most people, they thnk the Blaster VI is amazing bright, just the way I sell it, with 2 ohms resistance. This will also give you a longer burn time on the batteries.

I have had no complaints of how bright the 5W Blaster VI is. It is awesome bright. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[paulr]

I figure a Surefire lamp runs 20-30 hours and costs 20 bucks to replace. If a Luxeon runs 100 or 200 hours and costs $50 to replace ($25 for the part and another $25 of effort) that's not a big disaster. Have you actually had any Luxeons degrade from direct drive?

I agree that direct drive sort of worries me, though more from the view that a LED might go "pop!" leaving the user in the dark, than that it might degrade over 100's of hours.

Also, the Luxeon is a bleeding edge semiconductor device, just like a Pentium IV or something like that. Generally that means that within a year it will be much cheaper and better performing.

I'm more comfortable with your approach and the idea of direct drive shocked me (I would never overclock a CPU either) but at least I can see that Mr. Bulk's lights aren't popping like flashbulbs at a press conference, so maybe the idea isn't so awful.

[keithhr]

I read this thread and couldn't stand it anymore. I designed and made high end , esoteric audio cable a few years ago and hadn't taken out my $250 weller soldering station in 5 years, so realizing that the secret to doing this job properly( thanks to Wayne) was putting slobber on the rubber switch when done, I took our the resister and can't wait till dark to see how much of a difference it makes. It really was easier to do than I thought, but maybe that's because this is the first flashlight I've taken apart. I don't know what forces have been unleashed here, but only time will tell. Good instructions for doing this job,
Wanyne,
thanks for providing nice instructions

[ElektroLumens]

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
I figure a Surefire lamp runs 20-30 hours and costs 20 bucks to replace. If a Luxeon runs 100 or 200 hours and costs $50 to replace ($25 for the part and another $25 of effort) that's not a big disaster. Have you actually had any Luxeons degrade from direct drive?

I agree that direct drive sort of worries me, though more from the view that a LED might go "pop!" leaving the user in the dark, than that it might degrade over 100's of hours.

Also, the Luxeon is a bleeding edge semiconductor device, just like a Pentium IV or something like that. Generally that means that within a year it will be much cheaper and better performing.

I'm more comfortable with your approach and the idea of direct drive shocked me (I would never overclock a CPU either) but at least I can see that Mr. Bulk's lights aren't popping like flashbulbs at a press conference, so maybe the idea isn't so awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

My precautions may be unwarranted, or maybe they are. I'm just playing it safe. If a person really wants to overdrive it, it is great. I've done well over 100 direct drive 1 watt flashlights. It may be okay for the 5 watt. Battery life is another factor to consider. The batteries will last a bit longer with resistance, than direct drive.

Another consideration is that when the 3-To-D holders come out, and people put in the 6AA rechargables, with direct drive, it may very well push the 5W LS over the edge, as I have measured over 2 amps through the 5W with rechargables.

For the CR123, direct drive may be okay. And with the 6 AA alkalines it may be okay. But I am wondering about how 6AA will do, being nimh high capacity batteries. I now have some, and I can test them, when I have the time.



Wayne

[paulr]

Yes the NiMH may make higher current than the lithiums.

On another thread I also wondered what could happen if manufacturers make new improved lithium batteries. Alkaline batteries have just about doubled in capacity in the past 10-15 years, maybe lithiums will do the same? Perhaps a direct drive flashlight will work well on Duracells but one day someone puts in Duracell Ultra II, and boom!

However, I have no direct experience with these leds, and I figure you and Mr. Bulk both know what you're doing and have considered these issues, so both conclusions (direct drive vs. resistor) must be at least reasonable, for some reasonable if differing sets of priorities.

[keithhr]

I suppose I should have considered the additional voltage with rechargeables which is why I wanted the nimh capable holders to begin with, but I fell victim the allure of direct drive, what can I say. Maybe your testing will verify that nimh batters are ok, maybe the VI will be brighter and give us something more to risk in the process by not only going direct drive but using nimh rechargeable batteries as well.

[ResQTech]

How close to the spec of a 5W will the VI run at .5ohms? Will it be at spec or overdriven? Will it be okay to run with .5ohm resistance with 6AA nimh's?

[r2]

Has anyone measured the Blaster VI with and without the resistor to see how much difference there really is? Also, how much difference is there in battery life using standard alkalines? I think a few actual numbers will make the decision a lot easier to make.

As far as reliability of the emitter, I personally wouldn't worry about it too much for my own light (supporting hundreds of customers is another issue). If it's the same as the Blaster II then replacing the emitter should be pretty simple and in a year or two I'd expect a better emitter anyway. Unless you plan to use this for an hour or more a day, I'd say just plan on replacing the emitter in a year or so and don't worry about it. If you are using it a lot daily, you'll probably want a Blaster II or something friendlier on batteries anyway.

I've been away from CPF for the past month or so while I've been moving from Boston to Utah to England (where I am now) so if these questions have already been answered, I'd appreciate a pointer in the right direction.

Thanks,

Russ

[snuffy]

[ QUOTE ]
r2 said:
Has anyone measured the Blaster VI with and without the resistor to see how much difference there really is?


[/ QUOTE ]

r2 - hope this helps even if it's not direct drive.

The following measurements were made using fresh Surefire 123 batteries and a Fluke model 177 DVM.

Stock 2 ohm resistor: 0.6 amps.

Dale 1% 0.5 ohm resistor: 1.15 amps.

I don't have a light meter so I can't give any lux readings but it sure is brighter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BuddTX]

Wayne,

Some more thoughts.

While I hope otherwise, your lights will not be gracing the shelves of the Wal-Marts of this world anytime soon. Your target market is way above a Wal-mart flashlight isle.

I would think that your market would be primarily:

1. The Flashlight enthiusiast
2. The professional who needs a high end flashlight, where reliability is just as important as maximium brightness.

So, I think you could sell two versions of your lights.

The first one, would be for The Flashlight enthiusiast, where the person wants a "work of art" in both the physical light, and the beam, and maximum brightness possible, even if that means pushing the LED beyond it's limits. I would want to depend upon your experience to put the best heat sink, and do whatever you could to ensure that I am getting the brightest light that I could get.

When you sell this kind of light, I would be happy with a 30 day warantee. I want to know that this light, is right on the edge of it's limits, and as long as it doesn't fizzle out after a couple of sets of batteries, I am happy. Of course, I am buying a light that has been built from the ground up to be pushed to the limit, so I am realatively confident that this light won't easily break. If I bought a "maxed out" light like this, if it lasted a couple of years, with 3-5 hours a week of use, then started to get dim, I would be happy.

Now, the second group, of course, wants a very bright light, something superior to what they currently have access to, but reliabality is also a consideration. You have to build a light that is as bright as can be, but still within spec. Something that can be depended on.

Now, within group two, you have people that want a brighter light, as long as the run time is acceptable, and people that want acceptable light output, but with a long run time.

A LEO might need as bright as a light as possible, for a 30-45 minute situation, whereas a hiker might need a minimal light output, but with a real long run time.

[across the pond]

All this fuss over direct drive vs resitance just goes to show that regulated lights are the best! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So, Wayne, how's that regulated blaster coming along? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[PaulW]

I'll second that. Regulated is the way to go.

[brightnorm]

[ QUOTE ]
Paul_W said:
I'll second that. Regulated is the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is precisely why my favorite walking/hiking light is now the UBH plus KL1, which gives me more than six hours of relatively bright rock steady light.

Brightnorm

[PaulW]

I hope that the good folks at Surefire are lurking here. My wish is that they will introduce more regulated lights. I, for one, will buy one of each.

Hear that Surefire? Huh?

[radellaf]

I don't know what would make a good compromise. With 3x123 batts I'm getting 600-700mA with the 2-ohm R, and with 6 NiMH AA in the 3 to D holders and NO R, I'm getting similar currents.

I suspect .5 ohms would, as shown a few posts above, seriously overdrive the luxeon. How bad is 1.2 A thru a 5W luxeon? Anyone done this for more than an hour or two?

So, I can't figure an R that would work well for 3x123 and 6xAA NiMH. One ohm maybe, but that's starting to get low on the NiMH, and still over-spec with the Li.

[Pi_is_blue]

The hotlips with magic resistor I am getting will be driven at 1.5A, so if properly heatsinked, a 5 watt LS should be able to handle 1.2A easily.

[radellaf]

Then it might be OK. The Blaster IV seems supremely well heat-sunk. It's taking its 600mA without getting more than warm. c.f. The Tri-Light I just got in, which LOOKS like it's as well heat-sunk, but which gets as toasty as I'd like at 800mA (3xD NiMH). On 4 NiMH I blipped it at 1.9A...and I just don't think it's up to that. The Blaster at 1.2, that I might try. Maybe.